My experience is similar: very religious youth (some strain of the Plymouth Brethren; not the deadliest one, to further strain the virus metaphor, but definitely also not the mildest one), then a period of doubt ("all unbelievers go to hell, really?"), followed by being thrown out (which, I admit, at that point I did not fight too much against), a period of interest in the then-fashionable "new atheists", and now a return to seeing the value (and truth) of religion.
I also second your thoughts on holy persons (aka, saints), and I would go further (it will sound dogmatic, but it leaves room for interpretation): the saints are holding the world together, and the only thing worth doing is aspiring to become one.
Your statement-- the one about the mere crime of disbelief-- reminded me of my struggle with the various Biblical references to a "jealous God." In the context of the story told in Exodus, it is a powerful warning and a necessary driver of the plot. Maybe, even, in the context of those who want to hedge their bets and offer milk to the Shiva Lingam one day, perform the bareshnum over the course of the next ones, and offer a few prayers to Heavenly Father in between, it is a valuable piece of advice for living with confidence, peace, and certainty. But if so, it would just as well apply to those who wanted to stick to Hinduism or Zoroastrianism or anything else with fidelity.
Those images above, though-- and much of the absolute unhinged, rage-filled nature of these activists-- has made me want to go back to my struggles with the Old Testament . Hardened hearts; lice, boils, and locusts; fire and brimstone-- there is comfort here, and truth. Jealous God begins to seem eminently reasonable.
The disproportionate rage on display is definitely something I've noticed.
I first became aware of some of these trends back around 2016 when I chanced upon the Yale Halloween costume thing. It was all prompted by an email written by one of the faculty. What had this person written, I wondered? Had she advocated for wiping out whole villages or something? I was intrigued to see what horrors had been committed to electron and so I read the email that sparked off the rage. It was a beautifully-written and balanced email that asked some pertinent questions and was very thoughtful.
I simply could not understand the reaction - so full of rage and emotion, and from students who are supposed to be amongst the best and brightest in the world. My flabber was well and truly gasted. I asked the same question, then, that I have in this article "what the hell is going on?"
I still don't understand the extreme over-reaction - and I must have seen thousands of similar examples over the ensuing 6 years.
What I have discovered is that beliefs follow as an interpretation of, or explanation for, the inner experience.
In other words, the beliefs aren’t really the religion, they’re the intellectual reaction to, and attempted explanation of, an inner life that experiences contact with the Divine on some level, much as described by your Jewish friend. They reflect the intellectual status of the believer.
As you point out, any finite concept of the infinite must necessarily be incomplete and to a greater or lesser extent incorrect. But one might best avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. Our concept of the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is partial and incomplete, but, even in its crude form, very useful. We can’t really understand the totality of all reality — everything that ever was, is, or ever could be in all of an infinite eternity and an eternal infinity. But that doesn’t make it not real — by definition it is reality itself.
Unfortunately, over-much sophistry has inhibited at least some powerful thinkers from formulating more sophisticated beliefs around their religious experience to the point where they deny the experience altogether (or, almost as bad if not worse, substitute “nature” for the Divine). While science has rightly largely done away with the intellectual hegemony of the churches, it has betrayed its trust and has substituted instead the intellectual bondage of materialism.
Everyone, whether they want to admit it or not, has some kind of supreme value — a value from which they derive all others. The “holy” people, in my experience, have a certain very high ideal at their core, plus the strength of character to throw everything they have at living up to it. Whether or not the intellectual interpretation of that ideal is uniform among them is not important. The intellectual channel in which the inner, religious, experience flows will differ from person to person. The river bed is not the river. The route by which the water flows does not in the least alter the fact that the ultimate source and destiny of the water lies in the Great Ocean.
"How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing?"--Nietzsche.
Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor declared that mankind could not handle freedom. With religion's tide receding and its well-established boundaries of behavior eliminated, anything goes. So it does.
Mass Formation Psychosis takes hold among people struggling to find meaning. Yes, it does.
After growing up a rather devout kid, it was only through a remarkable coincidence that I returned to the faith after years of doubt, then atheism. During these years, I would become very angry whenever someone would attempt to talk to me about Christianity. The mere sight of Tim Tebow taking a knee on TV would really trigger me for some reason. I'm not sure why that was the case.
I highly recommend rereading, I hadn’t read his books since I was a kid but it’s been fun reading some of his work again or for the first time as an adult- I had never read The Great Divorce or Abolition of Man until recently. Still haven’t read his space trilogy. I’m suggesting it because his work has given me a lot of peace lately
While Americans are being exterminated, they are supposed to be busy with a 150 "sexes" and the age-old predicament of terminating pregnancy for which, I am still here to hear and argument regarding the causes that would enable preventative measures. After all, although I am not a women, I can't imagine any woman would "enjoy" the procedure and only a few know how harmful it is for them, besides the fact that they "get rid of" a human being they would be responsible for, but do not want.
While abortion is a red herring, it also furthers division among the people, when their best defense would be to unite against the mass murders.
For me all the power is in the land, the especially the plants that grow on it. This is what sustains the rest. I rejected my parents Catholic religion early on (some priests always creeped me out and later I found out why). I would do anything to get out of going to church, fake illness. That place is not for me. Only much later did I understand the reasons churces in general are not for me, mostly all the killing the churches did of so many people and ideas it destroyed. They say traits skip a generation, (ie 'she has her grandmothers face' or such); for me, I think my mindset was about a 100 years old when I was born, and little around me seemed to fit. I have been 'going backwards' since then, since i was actually born in breech position, it's a little funny. Until I started brewing cider and wine from all the apple and pear trees derelect in my neighborhood. That to me feels like 'religion', to be with the trees, and its the only thing that will do the trick.
I used to love gardening and since moving back to the UK last year haven't really started up again. But I have noticed how something like gardening (of whatever variety) can 'connect' you with something 'greater' (for want of a better description).
I think there have been attempts to re-habilitate young offenders by introducing them to growing stuff - there was a TV documentary about it in the UK a few years back. I can't remember how successful it was - but it was an interesting approach.
I think there is lots of those programs - gardening for city kids. A fella named Ron Finley is a famous city guerilla gardener and has done a Ted talk or 2..he is a good role model...The lady across the street is helping some of her neighbors kids do a little garden which is nice to see (like herding kittens it looks like from here)....I observed my Dad putting in his garden every year, his tomatoes and his rhubarb everpresent....and was encouraged to plant seeds myself (8-12 years old or so?).(I loved growing crazy squashes shaped like pretzels) ....but I would tend to not tend it.....and then I never followed it up as an adult. I ended up buying a house with big trees all over the lot except for a bit of sun, and so it's less viable for gardening, but my ex partner did alot of plantings, with the goal of enriching the soil, (accidentally typed soul there ;]) so it is in much better shape now. Ah, well, I am at least inspired to get some tomato starts and see what happens with the remaining part of the summer, its been too cool to put them in till now, a bit of a strange weather spring it was. Re Chemtrails and The Dimming are 2 docs on Rumble? that have made me not even take weather for granted, or to trust it. Life is complicated now, eh? best from OR jackie
Strictly speaking, God doesn't send anyone to Hell merely for unbelief - he sends them to Hell because they enjoy doing evil (and, if you haven't noticed, many people around us lately are happily announcing that they enjoy doing evil). To paraphrase many Christian authors over the years, if those people were placed into Heaven, they would desire to make a Hell of Heaven. There is a real sense in which giving them Hell is giving them what they want.
The people you refer to at the end, with the inner light, those are the ones that have gone through the very difficult journey of allowing their identity structure to dissolve. Its the most horrible experience, and as we know those people are more rare. Sometimes it happens within a religious path, or a spiritual path, or they had that quality coming into the world.
I disagree with you that people who surrender to God or something higher have "less of an identity". No, they just have another identity. Taking on an identity maybe just a part of the reason why a person decides to surrender to something higher, but identifying with it as part of a sense of self always comes along for the ride. I am special enough to be.... a part of the good, special ones who pray to god, I'm so special that I will deny myself and put God first, etc, etc. This is natural; everyone with a personality structure needs an outer source of value, and we get it wherever we can. (even being special for being the most horrible at something). Those that break through this identification and truly surrender and develop an inner light have gone through the most difficult breakdown of everything they know about themselves and the world.
I think what starts to make people genuinely good human beings are their intentions, and a community helps keep us on track. Because we all do really well times, and we all miss the mark at other times. That's a part of being human. And all people have their more angelic-like nature, and also their more base, self-centered, animal-limbic brain nature. Religions have great guidelines for ways to be a healthy part of humanity, and provide community. For some, religion helps them become a better person. Others use religion is a vehicle to take advantage of others, to judge others in the name of love or righteousness, or to feel better about the sins they commit during the week.
It's easy to put pictures up of people and make assumptions about them; what they are like and who they are. I've known a woman sexually abused by her priest as a child, another one physically abused by nuns in his class, another one molested by her doctor father during the week and watch him be loved by his church community on Sundays. You won't find pictures of those abuses to put up in your next post. You won't be able to post a 2D picture of that, a snapshot in time. Even if you did, that picture wouldn't be the scope of who that person is in their fullness.
I hope we don't forget that we're all here on this Earth doing our best, and try not to pass judgment because it doesn't help us all rise to a better measure of ourselves. We can discriminate what's right or wrong, what's healthy or not, while keeping our judgment in check, keeping the stones we would throw in our pocket. I don't want children exposed to any sexually explicit behavior, and I hope parents check themselves at these pride parades. I would also rather have the expression of peoples' less desirable nature out where I can see it so I can help or adjust, rather than it happening behind closed doors, as it too often does with "good" people.
I don't think they have less of an identity as such - it's just that their own identity is not their focus. I don't get the impression that these people cultivate an identity in any deliberate way. They just are what they are.
I read a book on exorcism written by a CofE minister in which the point was made that although he'd seen some wacky stuff that he couldn't explain, it wasn't about that. He was quite categorical that the moment you tried to try 'explain' all of this stuff or let the 'weird' stuff become too much of a thing, and that became your focus, you were essentially putting yourself too much to the front. His focus was on delivering an individual from their suffering.
The book, by the way, was not available for general release - it was an 'internal' church book and I was able to read it because there's a vicar in the family.
Of course, some 'understanding' is essential - otherwise how would you know the best way to go about helping someone? - but I think the general point was that this is secondary and only in service of the main goal of alleviating suffering.
I've spoken with a lot of people over the last 2yrs that, like me, thought they were done with religion and by (baby/bath water) inference God.
Nothing quite like late one night staring into the face & works of evil and thinking on how that came to be, to teach an old dog new tricks. It could still be Arendt's banality or Sagan's demons but there's certainly no harm in checking if the baby is ok and apologising for any presumptuous defenestration.
My experience is similar: very religious youth (some strain of the Plymouth Brethren; not the deadliest one, to further strain the virus metaphor, but definitely also not the mildest one), then a period of doubt ("all unbelievers go to hell, really?"), followed by being thrown out (which, I admit, at that point I did not fight too much against), a period of interest in the then-fashionable "new atheists", and now a return to seeing the value (and truth) of religion.
I also second your thoughts on holy persons (aka, saints), and I would go further (it will sound dogmatic, but it leaves room for interpretation): the saints are holding the world together, and the only thing worth doing is aspiring to become one.
Your statement-- the one about the mere crime of disbelief-- reminded me of my struggle with the various Biblical references to a "jealous God." In the context of the story told in Exodus, it is a powerful warning and a necessary driver of the plot. Maybe, even, in the context of those who want to hedge their bets and offer milk to the Shiva Lingam one day, perform the bareshnum over the course of the next ones, and offer a few prayers to Heavenly Father in between, it is a valuable piece of advice for living with confidence, peace, and certainty. But if so, it would just as well apply to those who wanted to stick to Hinduism or Zoroastrianism or anything else with fidelity.
Those images above, though-- and much of the absolute unhinged, rage-filled nature of these activists-- has made me want to go back to my struggles with the Old Testament . Hardened hearts; lice, boils, and locusts; fire and brimstone-- there is comfort here, and truth. Jealous God begins to seem eminently reasonable.
The disproportionate rage on display is definitely something I've noticed.
I first became aware of some of these trends back around 2016 when I chanced upon the Yale Halloween costume thing. It was all prompted by an email written by one of the faculty. What had this person written, I wondered? Had she advocated for wiping out whole villages or something? I was intrigued to see what horrors had been committed to electron and so I read the email that sparked off the rage. It was a beautifully-written and balanced email that asked some pertinent questions and was very thoughtful.
I simply could not understand the reaction - so full of rage and emotion, and from students who are supposed to be amongst the best and brightest in the world. My flabber was well and truly gasted. I asked the same question, then, that I have in this article "what the hell is going on?"
I still don't understand the extreme over-reaction - and I must have seen thousands of similar examples over the ensuing 6 years.
I surely don't mind being a jealous husband, or my wife being a jealous wife.
What I have discovered is that beliefs follow as an interpretation of, or explanation for, the inner experience.
In other words, the beliefs aren’t really the religion, they’re the intellectual reaction to, and attempted explanation of, an inner life that experiences contact with the Divine on some level, much as described by your Jewish friend. They reflect the intellectual status of the believer.
As you point out, any finite concept of the infinite must necessarily be incomplete and to a greater or lesser extent incorrect. But one might best avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. Our concept of the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is partial and incomplete, but, even in its crude form, very useful. We can’t really understand the totality of all reality — everything that ever was, is, or ever could be in all of an infinite eternity and an eternal infinity. But that doesn’t make it not real — by definition it is reality itself.
Unfortunately, over-much sophistry has inhibited at least some powerful thinkers from formulating more sophisticated beliefs around their religious experience to the point where they deny the experience altogether (or, almost as bad if not worse, substitute “nature” for the Divine). While science has rightly largely done away with the intellectual hegemony of the churches, it has betrayed its trust and has substituted instead the intellectual bondage of materialism.
Everyone, whether they want to admit it or not, has some kind of supreme value — a value from which they derive all others. The “holy” people, in my experience, have a certain very high ideal at their core, plus the strength of character to throw everything they have at living up to it. Whether or not the intellectual interpretation of that ideal is uniform among them is not important. The intellectual channel in which the inner, religious, experience flows will differ from person to person. The river bed is not the river. The route by which the water flows does not in the least alter the fact that the ultimate source and destiny of the water lies in the Great Ocean.
A wonderful comment Lon - thank you so much for this
Beautiful. 💕🙏
I think we all need to go off to pray......myself included.
I did not get the gift of faith...but I have hope (I want to believe)
and love for most of humanity....the good, hard working, compassionate and
generous ones. I am not worthy, but speak but the word....
I used to be a smug and condescending atheist, but not anymore.
Ecco the death of God.
"How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing?"--Nietzsche.
Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor declared that mankind could not handle freedom. With religion's tide receding and its well-established boundaries of behavior eliminated, anything goes. So it does.
Mass Formation Psychosis takes hold among people struggling to find meaning. Yes, it does.
After growing up a rather devout kid, it was only through a remarkable coincidence that I returned to the faith after years of doubt, then atheism. During these years, I would become very angry whenever someone would attempt to talk to me about Christianity. The mere sight of Tim Tebow taking a knee on TV would really trigger me for some reason. I'm not sure why that was the case.
How much CS Lewis have you read?
I've read a fair bit, but decades ago.
Interestingly, I've recently been wondering about re-visiting his stuff
I highly recommend rereading, I hadn’t read his books since I was a kid but it’s been fun reading some of his work again or for the first time as an adult- I had never read The Great Divorce or Abolition of Man until recently. Still haven’t read his space trilogy. I’m suggesting it because his work has given me a lot of peace lately
Oh and you probably know this but there was a movie that came out recently The Most Reluctant Convert. https://cslewismovie.com/
It's not about religion; it's about diversion.
While Americans are being exterminated, they are supposed to be busy with a 150 "sexes" and the age-old predicament of terminating pregnancy for which, I am still here to hear and argument regarding the causes that would enable preventative measures. After all, although I am not a women, I can't imagine any woman would "enjoy" the procedure and only a few know how harmful it is for them, besides the fact that they "get rid of" a human being they would be responsible for, but do not want.
While abortion is a red herring, it also furthers division among the people, when their best defense would be to unite against the mass murders.
For me all the power is in the land, the especially the plants that grow on it. This is what sustains the rest. I rejected my parents Catholic religion early on (some priests always creeped me out and later I found out why). I would do anything to get out of going to church, fake illness. That place is not for me. Only much later did I understand the reasons churces in general are not for me, mostly all the killing the churches did of so many people and ideas it destroyed. They say traits skip a generation, (ie 'she has her grandmothers face' or such); for me, I think my mindset was about a 100 years old when I was born, and little around me seemed to fit. I have been 'going backwards' since then, since i was actually born in breech position, it's a little funny. Until I started brewing cider and wine from all the apple and pear trees derelect in my neighborhood. That to me feels like 'religion', to be with the trees, and its the only thing that will do the trick.
I used to love gardening and since moving back to the UK last year haven't really started up again. But I have noticed how something like gardening (of whatever variety) can 'connect' you with something 'greater' (for want of a better description).
I think there have been attempts to re-habilitate young offenders by introducing them to growing stuff - there was a TV documentary about it in the UK a few years back. I can't remember how successful it was - but it was an interesting approach.
I think there is lots of those programs - gardening for city kids. A fella named Ron Finley is a famous city guerilla gardener and has done a Ted talk or 2..he is a good role model...The lady across the street is helping some of her neighbors kids do a little garden which is nice to see (like herding kittens it looks like from here)....I observed my Dad putting in his garden every year, his tomatoes and his rhubarb everpresent....and was encouraged to plant seeds myself (8-12 years old or so?).(I loved growing crazy squashes shaped like pretzels) ....but I would tend to not tend it.....and then I never followed it up as an adult. I ended up buying a house with big trees all over the lot except for a bit of sun, and so it's less viable for gardening, but my ex partner did alot of plantings, with the goal of enriching the soil, (accidentally typed soul there ;]) so it is in much better shape now. Ah, well, I am at least inspired to get some tomato starts and see what happens with the remaining part of the summer, its been too cool to put them in till now, a bit of a strange weather spring it was. Re Chemtrails and The Dimming are 2 docs on Rumble? that have made me not even take weather for granted, or to trust it. Life is complicated now, eh? best from OR jackie
Lovely. Nature has such a pure presence and is so healing. 💜🙏
Strictly speaking, God doesn't send anyone to Hell merely for unbelief - he sends them to Hell because they enjoy doing evil (and, if you haven't noticed, many people around us lately are happily announcing that they enjoy doing evil). To paraphrase many Christian authors over the years, if those people were placed into Heaven, they would desire to make a Hell of Heaven. There is a real sense in which giving them Hell is giving them what they want.
The people you refer to at the end, with the inner light, those are the ones that have gone through the very difficult journey of allowing their identity structure to dissolve. Its the most horrible experience, and as we know those people are more rare. Sometimes it happens within a religious path, or a spiritual path, or they had that quality coming into the world.
I disagree with you that people who surrender to God or something higher have "less of an identity". No, they just have another identity. Taking on an identity maybe just a part of the reason why a person decides to surrender to something higher, but identifying with it as part of a sense of self always comes along for the ride. I am special enough to be.... a part of the good, special ones who pray to god, I'm so special that I will deny myself and put God first, etc, etc. This is natural; everyone with a personality structure needs an outer source of value, and we get it wherever we can. (even being special for being the most horrible at something). Those that break through this identification and truly surrender and develop an inner light have gone through the most difficult breakdown of everything they know about themselves and the world.
I think what starts to make people genuinely good human beings are their intentions, and a community helps keep us on track. Because we all do really well times, and we all miss the mark at other times. That's a part of being human. And all people have their more angelic-like nature, and also their more base, self-centered, animal-limbic brain nature. Religions have great guidelines for ways to be a healthy part of humanity, and provide community. For some, religion helps them become a better person. Others use religion is a vehicle to take advantage of others, to judge others in the name of love or righteousness, or to feel better about the sins they commit during the week.
It's easy to put pictures up of people and make assumptions about them; what they are like and who they are. I've known a woman sexually abused by her priest as a child, another one physically abused by nuns in his class, another one molested by her doctor father during the week and watch him be loved by his church community on Sundays. You won't find pictures of those abuses to put up in your next post. You won't be able to post a 2D picture of that, a snapshot in time. Even if you did, that picture wouldn't be the scope of who that person is in their fullness.
I hope we don't forget that we're all here on this Earth doing our best, and try not to pass judgment because it doesn't help us all rise to a better measure of ourselves. We can discriminate what's right or wrong, what's healthy or not, while keeping our judgment in check, keeping the stones we would throw in our pocket. I don't want children exposed to any sexually explicit behavior, and I hope parents check themselves at these pride parades. I would also rather have the expression of peoples' less desirable nature out where I can see it so I can help or adjust, rather than it happening behind closed doors, as it too often does with "good" people.
I don't think they have less of an identity as such - it's just that their own identity is not their focus. I don't get the impression that these people cultivate an identity in any deliberate way. They just are what they are.
I read a book on exorcism written by a CofE minister in which the point was made that although he'd seen some wacky stuff that he couldn't explain, it wasn't about that. He was quite categorical that the moment you tried to try 'explain' all of this stuff or let the 'weird' stuff become too much of a thing, and that became your focus, you were essentially putting yourself too much to the front. His focus was on delivering an individual from their suffering.
The book, by the way, was not available for general release - it was an 'internal' church book and I was able to read it because there's a vicar in the family.
Of course, some 'understanding' is essential - otherwise how would you know the best way to go about helping someone? - but I think the general point was that this is secondary and only in service of the main goal of alleviating suffering.
I've spoken with a lot of people over the last 2yrs that, like me, thought they were done with religion and by (baby/bath water) inference God.
Nothing quite like late one night staring into the face & works of evil and thinking on how that came to be, to teach an old dog new tricks. It could still be Arendt's banality or Sagan's demons but there's certainly no harm in checking if the baby is ok and apologising for any presumptuous defenestration.
Amen ;)
...aaand a woman! Look at how much I care about this issue!
Pfiddling whilst Rome burns. I mean pflagellates. That’s what these narcissists are up to....
Salem Rudolph.
lol
Are you calling me a witch? :-)
Or add an H for the Hebrew version.
Shalom.
There's a book about, might cost you a cool 10 or 20k though, that says Hebrew is Greek.
https://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Greek-Joseph-Yahuda/dp/0728900130
Amen ;)