A much more succinct version of what I was thinking.
The utopian "can't we all [take a breath, take a step back] and just get along" is how society has gotten to this point.
Allowing, no, appeasing, no, accepting and even promoting obvious delusions of a mob shoveling coal into an already runaway train will not end well. As we should now clearly see.
Every sane passenger is pulling so hard on the emergency stop cord and nothing appears to slow the train. Do we have to rush toward the front and seize the controls?
"Love thy enemy" works under two circumstances (i.e., the cultural context in which it has always been presented):
1) Your enemy is powerless to substantially harm you (because you believe this life is a fleeting illusion and a brief stop before an infinite afterlife of divine reward, or your deity will grant you final victory over them, somehow despite them killing or torturing many of your compatriots)
2) you can escape or easily overcome your enemy, and therefore fighting/retaliating is unnecessarily adding to the net total of human suffering (i.e., it's ridiculous for a grown adult to clobber at a small child attempting to abuse them in their anger).
We're not there anymore. People want me dead or in chains. I don't want to be either of those things. I want to stop the people who want to do that to me. I don't feel love for them.
I get the sentiment - and it is certainly easy to get aggrieved by the fruitloops and what they're doing.
I'm just not sure that returning the 'hate' is a viable strategy. I don't see how any of this gets better (let alone 'fixed') if all we do is to build our own respective trenches and shoot at one another.
I'm certainly not advocating for going along with the nonsense - and it is nonsense - but we need to find some way of dialling the hate down a bit (on both sides). I don't know how that can be achieved. It may be all organic and just an emergent property of a set of societal circumstances but I do get the feeling that both sides are being played and that more hate and division is part of the plan.
I would agree completely, if, there were rational people to talk with from "their side". I'm sure there are, but it seems so many are either leading the parade of zombies down the street towards our family, or they are so afraid of their own, they cower inside their safe space not wanting to have their brains eaten. We have tried to single out the zombies (because let's face it they are not able to negotiate) only then to have the obedient Stockholm survivor defend them because we are now "the other".
It is one thing to talk hypotheticals, but to those of us who have had parts of our families permanently damaged by the accelerating insanity, it is very, very hard to give them grace.
It is frustrating, all the way around. At some point though, if the nonsensical don't offer an opportunity for true discussion and compromise, it will resort the survival of the strongest.
“It’s not a conspiracy if they really ARE trying to kill you.”
“Turn the other cheek” gets you two red cheeks these days. One cannot continually try to have respectful discourse with people who refuse to reciprocate with reason and logic. The meek shall inherit the earth does not mean what people usually take it to mean. Our silence in order to keep the peace has erroneously given the rabble the idea of consent or agreement. It’s not about returning hate. It’s about a willingness to refuse to be cowed. If that is interpreted as hate, so be it.
I am sure that you can find some examples on the “right”, but what you describe is primarily a phenomenon of the left in the USA. If you are not 100% on board with their entire agenda (which keeps shifting and becoming more radical) then you are literally an evil person. No deviation is allowed. And you must HATE Donald Trump.
I see little pushback (although I’m seeing more recently) from the Republican Party, which is in reality a center-right party but portrayed as some Hitler loving group of crazies. Most Republicans seem to be too scared to even reply to the lunatic left.
I cannot understand the sense of rage that animates the left in this country. They really act like children when they don’t get EVERYTHING that they want (and are somehow entitled to).
I’m not sure that a constitutional republican can survive such an assault. I guess that we will find out......
I think the 'right' tend to be more on the axis of "leave me alone to get on with things" - in general the less government involvement, the better. I think the 'derangement' on the right, such as it exists at all, is a reactive one.
The 'left' have a tendency to want more government, more regulation, more control and more uniformity of thought - legislated and forced, if necessary.
It's hard to know how to properly frame this - the various labels we apply are all somewhat inadequate. I've considered myself to be 'on the left' to some extent for many years, and would still do so, but my version of 'left' seems to be considered to be "far right" these days by some.
I think there's a place for government intervention in the pursuit of justice and fairness and in providing a decent safety net and help to get someone back on their feet when they fall. Letting the markets decide everything is a very bad idea. Letting governments decide everything is an equally awful idea.
You raise a very good point about the increasing rage and entitlement. This concerns me - and these were the very things that stood out for me with the "Halloween Incident" at Yale. The demand of the students to be "made safe" - for the adults to step in and provide some kind of cushioned environment (more cushioned than Yale?) was worrying. The students were essentially arguing for more control to be exercised over their lives in the name of 'safety' - in this case being made safe from the deadly danger of offensive Halloween costumes.
I think the Yale incident provided a very good taster for what was to come. I remember telling my daughters about it (and some of the other things I noticed happening like the Evergreen incident) and telling them they needed to be concerned and their response was "Dad, you're getting worked up about some lunatics on the internet - you need to chill". Neither of them think that just 6 years later.
Haidt and Lukianoff were spot on when they described the process of 'coddling'. We've seen that writ large with covid when the majority of people accepted and promoted the coddling of governments in response to covid. Wind the clock back 20 years and I strongly suspect had covid arisen back then it would have been impossible for governments to have implemented what they did. The pandemic arrived at a time when much of the population had been conditioned to accept the coddling. Coincidence? Design?
Yes, I can't disagree with that in essence. So much of what we see is infantile.
It's driven, I think, by a childish notion of some imagined utopia in which the 'reality' of people and what drives and motivates them is wilfully ignored in the name of goodness and compassion. I'm an idealist too - but, I hope, at least I recognise there's a childlike quality to my hopes. Any vision of some glorious future needs to be tempered in the crucible of reality and pragmatism.
I went through the same process with Jordan Pederson. I was hearing bad things about him and wanted to see if they were true. I found I agreed with most things he said. People really need to consistently be aware of how people are characterized online, and always have an open mind that the characterization may or may not be true. I so enjoyed an interaction with a friend of mine who said she didn't like Joe Rogan "because he is right-wing". I could say with confidence that because she thinks that, I knew for a fact she doesn't watch or listen to his podcast. She admitted that's true and changed her view.
Thanks for that link, was an interesting and hopeful read for me. Being a former collectivist (food co-op variety) in my youth, I know what it feels like to suddenly realize you're on the outs with so many of the people you've worked for and with.
It's heartening to hear someone who is pretty much a leftist realize how odd it is for 'pro-choice' folks to deny the right to bodily autonomy of those who refuse to 'vax'.
While I agree that some on the tip of the right wing are quite deranged; e.g., they understand economics, but refuse to stop buying votes with taxpayer money.
However, the left has a virtual monopoly on competed irrational lunacy and have absolutely no undestanding of economics.
As for Trump there is no denying the man is a megalomaniac. His policies however were extremely successful and resulted in massive economic growth. His redial to play by the rules of polite politics resulted in the Abraham peace agreements that years of cookie cutter politicians were incapable of producing.
While I would rather a less self centered individual like Ron DeSantis be the next POTUS Trump would be entertaining. And after having virtually the entire US Government deep state spend 6 years attacking him from within I imagine that if he were elected again he would fire every career bureaucrat that serves at the pleasure of the President. And that old be worth 4 years of listening to him referb to himself in the 3rd person.
Love them all the way to the gallows, my dear.
A much more succinct version of what I was thinking.
The utopian "can't we all [take a breath, take a step back] and just get along" is how society has gotten to this point.
Allowing, no, appeasing, no, accepting and even promoting obvious delusions of a mob shoveling coal into an already runaway train will not end well. As we should now clearly see.
Every sane passenger is pulling so hard on the emergency stop cord and nothing appears to slow the train. Do we have to rush toward the front and seize the controls?
"Love thy enemy" works under two circumstances (i.e., the cultural context in which it has always been presented):
1) Your enemy is powerless to substantially harm you (because you believe this life is a fleeting illusion and a brief stop before an infinite afterlife of divine reward, or your deity will grant you final victory over them, somehow despite them killing or torturing many of your compatriots)
2) you can escape or easily overcome your enemy, and therefore fighting/retaliating is unnecessarily adding to the net total of human suffering (i.e., it's ridiculous for a grown adult to clobber at a small child attempting to abuse them in their anger).
We're not there anymore. People want me dead or in chains. I don't want to be either of those things. I want to stop the people who want to do that to me. I don't feel love for them.
lol
I get the sentiment - and it is certainly easy to get aggrieved by the fruitloops and what they're doing.
I'm just not sure that returning the 'hate' is a viable strategy. I don't see how any of this gets better (let alone 'fixed') if all we do is to build our own respective trenches and shoot at one another.
I'm certainly not advocating for going along with the nonsense - and it is nonsense - but we need to find some way of dialling the hate down a bit (on both sides). I don't know how that can be achieved. It may be all organic and just an emergent property of a set of societal circumstances but I do get the feeling that both sides are being played and that more hate and division is part of the plan.
I would agree completely, if, there were rational people to talk with from "their side". I'm sure there are, but it seems so many are either leading the parade of zombies down the street towards our family, or they are so afraid of their own, they cower inside their safe space not wanting to have their brains eaten. We have tried to single out the zombies (because let's face it they are not able to negotiate) only then to have the obedient Stockholm survivor defend them because we are now "the other".
It is one thing to talk hypotheticals, but to those of us who have had parts of our families permanently damaged by the accelerating insanity, it is very, very hard to give them grace.
It is frustrating, all the way around. At some point though, if the nonsensical don't offer an opportunity for true discussion and compromise, it will resort the survival of the strongest.
“It’s not a conspiracy if they really ARE trying to kill you.”
“Turn the other cheek” gets you two red cheeks these days. One cannot continually try to have respectful discourse with people who refuse to reciprocate with reason and logic. The meek shall inherit the earth does not mean what people usually take it to mean. Our silence in order to keep the peace has erroneously given the rabble the idea of consent or agreement. It’s not about returning hate. It’s about a willingness to refuse to be cowed. If that is interpreted as hate, so be it.
I am sure that you can find some examples on the “right”, but what you describe is primarily a phenomenon of the left in the USA. If you are not 100% on board with their entire agenda (which keeps shifting and becoming more radical) then you are literally an evil person. No deviation is allowed. And you must HATE Donald Trump.
I see little pushback (although I’m seeing more recently) from the Republican Party, which is in reality a center-right party but portrayed as some Hitler loving group of crazies. Most Republicans seem to be too scared to even reply to the lunatic left.
I cannot understand the sense of rage that animates the left in this country. They really act like children when they don’t get EVERYTHING that they want (and are somehow entitled to).
I’m not sure that a constitutional republican can survive such an assault. I guess that we will find out......
I think the 'right' tend to be more on the axis of "leave me alone to get on with things" - in general the less government involvement, the better. I think the 'derangement' on the right, such as it exists at all, is a reactive one.
The 'left' have a tendency to want more government, more regulation, more control and more uniformity of thought - legislated and forced, if necessary.
It's hard to know how to properly frame this - the various labels we apply are all somewhat inadequate. I've considered myself to be 'on the left' to some extent for many years, and would still do so, but my version of 'left' seems to be considered to be "far right" these days by some.
I think there's a place for government intervention in the pursuit of justice and fairness and in providing a decent safety net and help to get someone back on their feet when they fall. Letting the markets decide everything is a very bad idea. Letting governments decide everything is an equally awful idea.
You raise a very good point about the increasing rage and entitlement. This concerns me - and these were the very things that stood out for me with the "Halloween Incident" at Yale. The demand of the students to be "made safe" - for the adults to step in and provide some kind of cushioned environment (more cushioned than Yale?) was worrying. The students were essentially arguing for more control to be exercised over their lives in the name of 'safety' - in this case being made safe from the deadly danger of offensive Halloween costumes.
I think the Yale incident provided a very good taster for what was to come. I remember telling my daughters about it (and some of the other things I noticed happening like the Evergreen incident) and telling them they needed to be concerned and their response was "Dad, you're getting worked up about some lunatics on the internet - you need to chill". Neither of them think that just 6 years later.
Haidt and Lukianoff were spot on when they described the process of 'coddling'. We've seen that writ large with covid when the majority of people accepted and promoted the coddling of governments in response to covid. Wind the clock back 20 years and I strongly suspect had covid arisen back then it would have been impossible for governments to have implemented what they did. The pandemic arrived at a time when much of the population had been conditioned to accept the coddling. Coincidence? Design?
More and more I'm tending towards the latter.
Infantilism is the driver of the leftist outrage. With a splash of neurotic nihilism thrown in for good measure.
Yes, I can't disagree with that in essence. So much of what we see is infantile.
It's driven, I think, by a childish notion of some imagined utopia in which the 'reality' of people and what drives and motivates them is wilfully ignored in the name of goodness and compassion. I'm an idealist too - but, I hope, at least I recognise there's a childlike quality to my hopes. Any vision of some glorious future needs to be tempered in the crucible of reality and pragmatism.
Republic not republican
I went through the same process with Jordan Pederson. I was hearing bad things about him and wanted to see if they were true. I found I agreed with most things he said. People really need to consistently be aware of how people are characterized online, and always have an open mind that the characterization may or may not be true. I so enjoyed an interaction with a friend of mine who said she didn't like Joe Rogan "because he is right-wing". I could say with confidence that because she thinks that, I knew for a fact she doesn't watch or listen to his podcast. She admitted that's true and changed her view.
check this out - https://winteroak.org.uk/2022/07/01/i-am-done-with-the-left-right-divide-its-now-the-humans-versus-the-deadly-robotic-corporate-state/
Thanks for that link, was an interesting and hopeful read for me. Being a former collectivist (food co-op variety) in my youth, I know what it feels like to suddenly realize you're on the outs with so many of the people you've worked for and with.
It's heartening to hear someone who is pretty much a leftist realize how odd it is for 'pro-choice' folks to deny the right to bodily autonomy of those who refuse to 'vax'.
Exact same topic with a garnish of science: https://larryturner.substack.com/p/mass-hypnosis-is-a-feature-not-a
That's an excellent article Larry. Nice job.
Thanks for pointing it out. A really good examination of the role of MFP and hypnosis in the current freakshow.
Thanks for the feedback, Rudolph. I appreciate it.
While I agree that some on the tip of the right wing are quite deranged; e.g., they understand economics, but refuse to stop buying votes with taxpayer money.
However, the left has a virtual monopoly on competed irrational lunacy and have absolutely no undestanding of economics.
As for Trump there is no denying the man is a megalomaniac. His policies however were extremely successful and resulted in massive economic growth. His redial to play by the rules of polite politics resulted in the Abraham peace agreements that years of cookie cutter politicians were incapable of producing.
While I would rather a less self centered individual like Ron DeSantis be the next POTUS Trump would be entertaining. And after having virtually the entire US Government deep state spend 6 years attacking him from within I imagine that if he were elected again he would fire every career bureaucrat that serves at the pleasure of the President. And that old be worth 4 years of listening to him referb to himself in the 3rd person.